This is definitely something I experience, and I identify with AvPD very strongly.
I also had obvious social anxiety before I even knew about AvPD. To me, it’s pretty easy to differentiate at this point, because “social anxiety” feels, you know, like anxiety, but my AvPD stuff feels like shame, and the fear of shame.
I experience it like:
social anxiety =
physical tense buzzing wariness
imagining the Bad Thing happening (messing up, being laughed at, humiliated)
catastrophizing
panicky
wanting to escape the danger.
(The danger is a thing Outside of me, which I can be safe from as long as I get out of this situation.)
AvPD moments =
a cold knot of sick shame in my stomach
feeling exposed, seen, defenseless, inexcusable
not having any shields or masks left to hide behind
wanting to flee and be alone / unseen, or
to disappear (dissociate) and be invisible.
(The danger is a thing Inside of me, which I can’t escape ever because it is Me, but which I can avoid having to face as long as I get out of this situation.)
So, the self esteem tug-of-war.
For me, it’s because although I started from a point of being totally incapacitated by AvPD symptoms/self hatred/etc, I’ve spent years rebuilding my self-esteem and creating a sense of who I am. So on good days, I believe in the thing I’ve spent so much time carefully growing – the feeling that I’m an OK person, that I’m likable, that I deserve to have a full life and to enjoy things. (Notice, when I’m in this healthy mindset, I’m not even thinking about “whether other people can see me/how they will judge me”.)
Then sometimes I will be in a lower mood, or something will trigger me into old/negative thought patterns, and I’ll find myself spiraling in “I’m so terrible,” and “any kindness/positivity from others is meaningless, for A, B, or C reasons,“ and “I will be revealed to be Horrible sooner or later, and then I’ll lose every positive relationship I have.”
So I definitely think it is possible to believe you’re worthy and unworthy at almost-the-same-time. Having this kind of push-pull struggle between feelings of adequacy and inadequacy is entirely possible, and it’s probably very normal if you’re in the process of recovering from poor self esteem.
(1) hi, i have really severe social anxiety and i've been wondering if it's possible i actually have avpd. i saw the ask about self-esteem and i kind of related but kind of not if that makes sense? i honestly don't know how i would rate my self esteem. i think i'm a person of worth who is intelligent and talented but i'm always terribly worried that i'm lying to myself and my perceived self is just an ideal i've created and i'm not actually as smart or funny or interesting as i'd like to think.
(2) i guess to rephrase, i think every life has inherent value and that logically applies to my own life, and i have a sense of identity, but i’m scared that it isn’t real. and as ridiculous as it sounds, i’m insecure that this carries into my relationships with other people as well. like with my boyfriend, i worry that i’ve fooled myself into thinking i’m interesting and maybe i’ve somehow managed to fool him, too. i guess i’m wondering if this sounds characteristic of avpd to you at all?
Hey.
It’s hard to say whether this sounds like AvPD or not because low self-esteem can exist with almost any mental illness, or even without it. It can exist with Social Anxiety Disorder (SAD) and it can exist with AvPD. I can’t give you an answer to that, unfortunately.
I would recommend you have a read through the links on our Resources page, but specifically these two links:
AvPD Criteria (in-depth).
AvPD or Social Anxiety Disorder (SAD)- Avoidance (forum).
These should help give you a better understanding and should help you determine whether you have AvPD or SAD. Keep in mind though, you can have both. SAD is very common with in people with AvPD.
I know personally, my SAD was a pre-cursor for my AvPD.
- Jay.
you know, I probably resembled this earlier in my life … I mean, I don’t know much about SZPD, but what you’ve been describing definitely resonates with my experiences
in my case though, I think it was caused by intense, continuous dissociation, from my environment + from my own feelings. (and also, depression – numbness or feeling unaffected by things you used to react to, is a symptom of depression)
but nowadays I am plenty emotional and invested in things, which is nice!
(if anyone's interested, you can read my post about dissociation and self-erasure, or read about what I do to get better in general)
i feel like i may have developed szpd as a way to cope with my avpd symptoms lol…
for me it’s been like i started with anxiety and that got so bad that i just became avoidant and then i became so avoidant that i now just have no emotions and don’t care about anything
stay tuned for the next chapter where i stop being a human completely and turn into a robot
Your blog is absolutely fantastic and it's helping me so much you have no idea. Thank you!!!
aww, that really means a lot to me :3 i’m so glad you’re finding it useful. thanks for the message!!
Any advice on how to approach tough conversations with my parents without getting overwhelmed and crying?
-Keep in mind that not every discussion is a fight. It doesn’t have to turn into a fight.
-Think about what you want to say on beforehand. You can write your ideas if possible so you don’t miss any point or get lost within the conversation.
-Tell your parents that you want to talk about something important. Schedule a brief time with them in which they can give you their attention.
-Let them know why talking about that subject is important for you.
-Your emotional well being goes first. If the thing is getting ugly you can ask to pause the conversation and re take it when everybody is more calm (this particular tip has made wonders in the relationship with my mom).
-Keep your voicetone calm but steady. Don’t shout, and try to not get heated. Remember that it’s a conversation. Don’t get defensive even if they do. The outcome might not be what you wanted and that might be frustrating but try to stay calm.
-Some phrases that might help are:
“I would like to know what you think of (the subject)”
“Why do you think that way? What are your concerns?”
“I understand why you say it but I do not agree”
“From my point of view…”
“I would appreciate if you could give thought to (subject)” and negotiate a partial agreement
“I don’t agree with that but I respect your decision/ will support you”
-If things don’t go your way you can always try again when armed with resources.
And even if the outcome isn’t what you wanted I am already proud of you for speaking out. I believe you and support you.
“So much harm comes into this world when the wrong thing is said. But that’s nothing compared to the pain from what goes unsaid.”
—
Brad Meltzer
(via purplebuddhaquotes)
Recovery is like cleaning out a house that’s been through a hurricane. There’s mud a foot thick on the floors; some of the windows are cracked; there’s leaves stuck in cracks you didn’t know existed.
So unlike in the movies, there are no “breakthrough moments”, where you suddenly realize one thing and the whole house is clean. Oh there may be important turning points – moments when you realize that those aren’t frosted windows, that’s dirt, and you need to clean it off, and that’s why it’s so fugging dark in here. And that is an important breakthrough, in the sense that without it you would not succeed in cleaning the house, but then you still have to clean the windows.
Therapy is just someone who’s had experience with post-hurricane cleanup, Consulting over the phone, recommending tools and giving you advice. “Start with the floor,” they say, when you’re too overwhelmed to even begin, and they tell you what shovel to buy. So you start shoveling, and it’s HARD, and you’re exhausted all the time, and you’ve only shoveled out the front hallway, and it feels like it’s never going to really get better.
But you do get good at shoveling, and slowly you build up your strength, and after a few months you can shovel as much as you need to, but there’s still a LOT of mud here, so it takes a year to get that shoveled out, and your house is still muddy and the windows are cracked (and frosted), and there’s still debris everywhere, and every time you walk around you’re stepping an a quarter-inch of mud, but you CAN walk around, you can get anywhere you need to go, and the house is still a fucking mess, you’re a fucking mess, a disaster not fit for human habitation, but on the other hand you can no longer convince yourself that “nothing’s ever going to work”. It can get better. You can point at things that used to be super-fucked-up and now are only moderately-fucked-up. Progress is possible.
But then again, you’re not making any progress anymore. You thought you had the hang of it, but now the shovel isn’t working, and every time you shovel mud out of one place it slides into another and you’re not making any headway and you can barely pick up any mud with your shovel anyway and so maybe that was it – you had a nice run, but this is as good as it’s ever gonna get, you’re still gonna be fucked up forever, and you finally bring it up to your therapist, and they nod, and tell you to buy a hose.
So now you’re hosing down the floors, and that’s a new skill set to learn, and it splashes everywhere, and now you’ve got mud on your walls, but it does get the floor clear. But you hosed out the front hallway, and then realized that to clear out the living room you’re gonna have to hose it out into the front hallway, which means the hallway’s just gonna get messy again, so then you have to redo the front hallway, but you start planning out which rooms to do in which order, so it goes pretty smoothly after that, until the day when you’ve got all the big mud puddles gone, but there’s still mud on the walls, and stuck in corners, and no matter how hard you spray you still end up with this thin coating of mud-dirt-dust on the floor after it dries, and honestly you’re making more of a mess than you are cleaning up a mess at this point. And you express your frustration, and the therapist tells you where to find, and how to use, a mop.
So you mop all the floors, and it’s actually looking pretty good, and you remembered to start mopping from the inside out, so that’s not a big deal, until you open a door and realize you forgot to shovel out the pantry. You didn’t think it could get into the pantry, with the door shut, but there it is, mud 3 inches thick, and the only way to get it out is to shovel it, and you’ll have to take it through the kitchen, so you have to shovel out the pantry, and then hose down the pantry, and then re-hose the kitchen, and then mop the pantry, and then re-mop the kitchen, and EUUURGHHHJHH.
But you’re really good at it, at this point, so it’s not like it’s a big deal. It’s irritating af, and you’re sick to death of doing this, but it’s not scary, or overwhelming, or horrifying. It’s just really, really annoying.
And the fact is, you will never be done cleaning. Even if there’s never another hurricane, there’s dishes, and dust settling on counters, and spills, and mud tracked in after snowstorms, and laundry. There’s not some magical moment when you’re “done”, and you can stop working forever (except possibly, depending on who’s right about the afterlife, after you die). But you do reach a point where you it transitions from “impossible” to “meh, just a thing”
You do reach a point where you look around, and you’re kinda proud of what you’ve done You do reach a point where you recognize that your current tools aren’t doing the job you need, and you research and find and learn how to use a tool all on your own. You do reach a point where, when you see a storm coming, you know how to prepare for it, and you purchase and lay out all the supplies you need, and when the storm finishes, you can get your house back up and ready in practically no time at all. You do reach a point where storms aren’t so scary, because you know how to weather them and you know for a fact that you can recover from them. You do reach a point where friends ask you for tips on how to clean their houses You do reach a point where, every time you need a tool, it’s one you already posses. You do reach a point where you’ve replaced all the windows and sealed up all the cracks and replaced the insulation, and for the first time, you’re comfortable all the way through a winter. You do reach a point where someone compliments you on how clean and comfortable your house is. You do reach a point where you’ve done all the remediation, and you can start remodeling the house to fit your needs.
So yeah, it’s a lot of hard work that’ll never be done. But it’s also so, so worth it.
This is just extremely helpful right now, if you are feeling overwhelmed by current events, and maybe tempted to give up on the whole notion. TW for non-graphic suicidality at the link (but like... how to deal with it!)
Thank you for writing and sharing ❤️
I wrote a post as someone who has gone through months-long periods of time when I genuinely believed it was the end of the world and couldn’t bring myself to get out of bed because of it. These are some emotional strategies I figured out along the way, and hope they’re helpful to someone else.
When farmers grow the same crop too many years in a row, it can leave their soil depleted of minerals and other nutrients that are vital to the health of their fields.
To avoid this, farmers will often alternate the crops that they grow because some plants will use up different minerals (such as nitrogen) while other plants replenish those minerals. This process is known as “crop rotation.”
So the next time you find that you need to step away from a project to work on something else for a while, don’t beat yourself up for “quitting” that project. Give yourself permission to practice “mental crop rotation” to maintain a healthy brain field.
Because I’ve found that when that unnecessary guilt and pressure are removed from the process, a good mental crop rotation can help you feel more energized and invigorated than ever once you’re ready to rotate back to that project.